[jrgoffin]

I guessing you checked you valve lash also. Great job. This has been a awesome thread.

My apologies for not thinking of this sooner, but Ed had reminded me of the "Quality Audit" that you may have been thinking of along the same lines as checking the lash. Here's their spec's from the assembly manual as an FYI (the dims are in MM, by the way). Since my engine is basically brand new, I went off the premise that something like this would easily fall in to the factory range.

 

[SVT_Troy]

I've been out of the loop working on another project in my spare time but your progress and documentation is phenomenal Joe. Ed walked me through the cam degreeing procedure making it a breeze despite holding up the process with my blunders.

I will have to add the tools to install the cam followers. I used an old screw driver trick Ed showed me. While it worked, i don't want to do it the same way again.

I will definitely be following this thread when I build my final (fingers crossed on it being the last one!) 4v engine.

 

[04DeadShort]

My apologies for not thinking of this sooner, but Ed had reminded me of the "Quality Audit" that you may have been thinking of along the same lines as checking the lash. Here's their spec's from the assembly manual as an FYI (the dims are in MM, by the way). Since my engine is basically brand new, I went off the premise that something like this would easily fall in to the factory range.

View attachment 140313

Yea that's what I'm talking about. No need to apolgize. But thanks for more useful info.

 

[jrgoffin]

Yea that's what I'm talking about. No need to apolgize. But thanks for more useful info.

You're welcome! Glad I can keep adding all the helpful (and rare) documents that others can save for their own builds.

I've been out of the loop working on another project in my spare time but your progress and documentation is phenomenal Joe. Ed walked me through the cam degreeing procedure making it a breeze despite holding up the process with my blunders.

I will have to add the tools to install the cam followers. I used an old screw driver trick Ed showed me. While it worked, i don't want to do it the same way again.

I will definitely be following this thread when I build my final (fingers crossed on it being the last one!) 4v engine.

It's been very enjoyable, and I've been glad I can share all the details with anyone thinking of doing this. I have had several years off from building any engines, and the last one was a pushrod 302 in a Fox, so this is a great "refresher"! I was most nervous about the cams, but with talking me through it and then realizing what it entailed, I literally laughed at how easy it turned out to be (an "I told you so" moment from Ed). Although it is time-consuming and tedious, it's not beyond the grasp of anyone that is building an engine like this.

The spring compressor was a great add, but I imagine I may have been able to use the screwdriver method to install the followers since the lash adjusters have yet to be pumped up. No matter, I wanted to add it to my collection, and since it was economically priced, I couldn't resist!

For anyone that is curious about the "other" way of tackling the followers, here is the YouTube video that lays is out:

 

[04DeadShort]

Did I read in this thread that you modified the primary tensioners to relax when the car is off? May have been another thread im following but I can't find it now. Just looking for a little more info on that.

 

[IWRBB]

Did I read in this thread that you modified the primary tensioners to relax when the car is off? May have been another thread im following but I can't find it now. Just looking for a little more info on that.

http://www.modularfords.com/threads/214602-Ratcheting-style-chain-tensioner-mod

http://www.modularfords.com/threads/221345-Broke-a-passenger-Primary-Chain

 

[sam92lx]

What is the reasoning behind this?



edit...I got a lot to learn about this motor so any help is appreciated. Thanks


Scott

 

[408Stang]

I think some of what was being explained is that the lash adjusters (lifters in a pushrod engine) were "relaxed" because this is a fresh build. The motor has never been started so there's no residual oil inside the lash adjuster making them fairly easy to compress.

I'm not sure about the chain tensioners being "relaxed" . They fill with oil in the same way. During a fresh build I don't know how one would lock them in an extended position. They are either fully compressed (slack chains) or held with nominal spring pressure until actual oil pressure is applied.

However, I know there are ratcheting chain tensioners available which keep the chains tight in the event of oil pressure loss.. So perhaps Joe was referring to backing off the ratcheting tensioner a "click / notch". But in my opinion this would introduce slop in the degreeing process. I would think one would want taut timing chains.

After the engine has been started... Just one time... the lash adjusters and chain tensioners fill with oil and they are more difficult to compress until all the oil is squeezed out of them.

In the discussion about degreeing the cams this is why I asked about the use of a solid lash adjuster. If one hadn't been used then as the cam rolled on the follower it would have compressed the empty lash adjuster because the valve springs have enough power to keep the valve closed. So one basically compresses the lash adjuster rather than the valve when there is no oil in the lash adjuster during a fresh build.

I hope I answered your question.

Now if someone can just tell me how to keep the timing chains tight and how to keep the cam phasers on a 3-valve engine from rotating during the degreeing process for my own build.

 

[jrgoffin]

Did I read in this thread that you modified the primary tensioners to relax when the car is off? May have been another thread im following but I can't find it now. Just looking for a little more info on that.

My apologies here (again), this was something that was completely left out, but hopefully it isn't too late to include more pictures. The two threads listed a few posts back have some good information on how the primary tensioner "fail-safe" ratcheting arm acts to put maximum pressure on the chain guide. Ed had added a good explanation as well, but I'll throw in more here just for ease of having it all in one place. If I flub up the verbage, I'm sure Ed will chime in, especially if there are more questions. This is another one of the DOHC faux pas that ranks up there with four-thread spark-plug holes, lack of coolant flow from the driver's side head, and the "upside down" secondary tensioner on the passenger side!

Anyway, the ratchet puts pressure on the guide in order to always maintain a positive engagement and to aid in quiet starts (once the piston extends, the ratchet goes with it but stays extended). With higher RPM's, there is a slight bit of chain stretch that is introduced, leading to additional extension from the plunger, and of course, the ratchet. One negative aspect of this is the potential to keep continual pressure on the snout of the cam, along with the front journal due to the chain tension. As oil drains off from the cam, and with the tension on the guide, you essentially have a dry journal for a short time until oil pressure comes up. As to how many cars have experienced problems due to this, I couldn't say, but since it was something that was brought to light by Sean Hyland and John Mihovetz, guys that are driving their cars hard may have been the first victims. Additionally, as the miles increase, so could the wear in the forward journal - same outcome.

There are two tweaks when it comes to the "earlier" iron primary tensioners (not including a switch to the later plastic-bodied parts). The first is the removal of some teeth on the ratchet to allow it to retract slightly to reduce the pressure on the guide. The second solution involves removing the ratchet completely and placing a spacer disc under the plunger, essentially converting it to a later-style version. This will keep some pressure on the guide, but will still allow the plunger to relax while not completely collapsing and removing all guide pressure. I did put in a call to a tech at Hyland Motorsports, so the dimensions of the spacer should be here shortly for anyone that may have an interest in having them made if that becomes the preferred route. In any case, here is a screen shot from Hyland's book that shows the spacer:

For the DIY crowd out there, here's the process to modify your own...

The ratchet will have to be removed first, but in order to prevent the plunger and spring from flying across the room, I used a heavy zip tie to hold it in place. Alternatively, it can be held in a vice while the ratchet is worked out. Here's one ready to go:

To remove the ratchet, it actually has to be rotated 180° in order to release the teeth. Before that step, however, there is a pawl that has to be pulled back slightly to disengage. This is easy enough to do with a small screwdriver or pick (the plunger is removed in this picture, but I'll get back to that further down this post).

Next, use a small crescent wrench to grab the end of the ratchet so it can be rotated. This picture shows it after being turned around, at which point it will pull out (it's a tight fit, so it takes a little effort). You can also use a punch and tap the ratchet out from the bottom since its passage is drilled through the tensioner body.

When the ratchet is out, the pawl will extend in the bore, but it's not an issue since it is easy to pull back when it is time to push the ratchet back in. If you were to use the spacer from Hyland (or make your own), the pawl will sit there and do nothing from here on out.

Here is the ratchet, which you'll notice has ten teeth:

From here, it is just a matter of grinding off some teeth from the BOTTOM of the ratchet. I have seen some that have just a few teeth removed, but I went ahead and zapped off six since the grinding stone on my dremel happened to be a perfect fit (when parallel to the ratchet, it set right down and took just a minute to grind). The first picture is of both ratchets, including my stone, and the second is a before-and-after from a different angle:

With the teeth removed, the ratchet will have a free area where it can slide slightly (the plunger is also obviously removed here):

For reference, this is the difference now between the ratchet at full extension, as well as its retraction which again, will remove some pressure from the chain guide:

Since I wanted to get a picture of the guts, I slid the wire ties off in order to let the plunger pop out (but made sure to keep it in my hand so nothing would launch across the garage!), hence some of the photos showing them already removed. If you happen to go the spacer route and take them apart, it's important to note that the plunger is different between the two: the right contains a disc that sits on top of the spring, with that plunger having a bleed hole at the end. The left side plunger is solid - don't mix them up! There is also a small disc at the bottom of the bore that meters the oil, but I didn't bother pulling them out (it is visible in the Hyland picture up top).

Putting them back together from this point took a little bit more dexterity (although another zip tie could have been cranked back on). The small screwdriver held the pawl, while the piston was slid in - with some oil - and then the ratchet was pushed in after. Once it was compressed again, the pin can be stuck back in to hold the ratchet back before they get mounted back on.

For general reference, these iron primary tensioners are listed as those from '96-'01, with the newer plastic version going in to service in '02 (although some Terminators have been reported to have the iron ones). Fortunately, the FRPP timing kit comes with iron versions, so that is a bonus. If you want to buy them separately, here is a picture I found of the two showing the Ford part numbers:

Also, these can be scored through Melling (and I think Cloyes as well, but I didn't look up that information). These two charts show the Melling p/n's, with the lower one for the "newer" Terminator version as a comparison (BT-429 & BT-430). As an FYI, the Melling versions are just shy of $40 each, which is about half of what Ford gets for the same thing.

 

[04DeadShort]

A quick search on Amazon shows the iron's can be had for just a few dollars more than the plastic versions. I have a brand new set of plastics that came in a package deal that had some other stuff in it I needed awhile back. Think I might go ahead and scoop up some iron tensioners. And just to help Joe out, and yournot able to see the pic, here are the part numbers for primary iron tensioners

Right F6AZ-6L266-DA
Left F6AZ-6L266-CA

 

[jrgoffin]

A quick search on Amazon shows the iron's can be had for just a few dollars more than the plastic versions. I have a brand new set of plastics that came in a package deal that had some other stuff in it I needed awhile back. Think I might go ahead and scoop up some iron tensioners. And just to help Joe out, and yournot able to see the pic, here are the part numbers for primary iron tensioners

Right F6AZ-6L266-DA
Left F6AZ-6L266-CA

Some of the pics aren't showing up?? In the spirit of forgetfulness, I meant to convert them to .PNG format, but neglected to do so (apparently they host correctly in that way). Thanks for re-posting the p/n, even though it was supposed to show up above. I'll convert the image and see if that makes a difference. I didn't look up the price for the plastic tensioners, but the iron versions came in around $70 each (Tousley or Tasca prices) but can also be scored under Melling much cheaper.

 

[04DeadShort]

I was speaking about the technical side of it Joe. I have my phone setup not to load large images if not connected to wifi so I can save a little data. I read a lot of these threads while I'm at work on Tapatalk. Some pictures, depending on their resolution, I have to wait till I'm at home on my computer or in a wifi area before I can see them. Has nothing to do with your end. Keep up the good work.

 

[eschaider]

Pics are all visible now Joe. Great documentation and excellent write up and illustrative photography.

For those folks who have the plastic tensioners, I wouldn't take the engine apart to change them unless you operate it like a race engine on a frequent basis. When you do your rebuild I would definitely change to the modified cast iron tensioner Joe has documented — they are just better for your engine.

When you do change to the cast iron tensioner you want to do the mods Joe has documented so well above here. The reason for the ratcheting plunger on the OEM chains was exactly what Joe said. It would maintain a minimum tension on the primary drive chains minimizing primary chain start up slap that you would hear without maintaining a zero slack condition for the primary drive chains.

When you operate the engine like a race engine the primary drive chain can and does stretch from age and use and just like Ford intended, the ratcheting tensioner will pick up the slack maintaining proper chain dynamics in the running engine. The problem comes when you operate the engine like a race engine and shut the engine down. The ratcheting plunger will not retract because the ratchet is holding it out in its extended position. As Joe indicated in his post the earliest reported discovery of the problem was with Hyland and Mihovitz.

When the ratcheting plunger maintains the high tension on the drive chain, to take up the additional stretch at high engine rpm, at idle or when the engine is off you have the potential to pinch the already thin oil film between the cam bearing and the aluminum saddle in the head once the engine is shut down — not to mention unnecessary tension in the primary drive chain. The next time you start the engine, as Joe mentioned, that cam bearing will start dry with a metal to metal scuff. Repeated starts like this will kill the cam, the head and if the primary chain breaks, the valves and possibly the block if you break off a valve.

The carnage is impressive. The plastic tensioners do not allow the abuse of the timing chain like the ratcheting tensioners do. They also reduced the warranty claims Ford experienced. The plastic tensioners limit the amount the tensioning plunger can be retracted into the tensioner housing saving those engines from this sort of unhappy ending. At the same time, the problem with the plastic tensioner is that it is plastic and not as durable as cast iron — hence the love affair guys like us have with the cast iron design.

The mods that Joe has documented here will allow you to use the more durable cast iron units without the undesirable damage to the engine's cams heads and potentially other expensive components (are there any cheap ones?) the unmodified stock cast iron units can precipitate.



Ed

 

[eschaider]

You got in before I did Deadshort (BTW if you have a first name we'll use it). There is a problem with viewing some jpegs in some browsers. If you guys post pics using the png style, the pics appear to work in/on all browsers.


Ed

 

[04DeadShort]

Yes sir, my name is Ken. Probably need to put that in my sig.

 

[eschaider]

Got it Ken.

Thx,

Ed

 

[04DeadShort]

After reading over your thread I want to ask this and be sure. The gt500 oil pimp WILL work on a Teksid block? I just simply need to pick up the Boundary Engineering gears to go in it?

 

[jrgoffin]

After reading over your thread I want to ask this and be sure. The gt500 oil pimp WILL work on a Teksid block? I just simply need to pick up the Boundary Engineering gears to go in it?

It will. Even though it is from the 5.8, the 3V/4V pumps interchange with the 4.6 and 5.4. Good choice on the gears as well!

 

[jrgoffin]

Just got this from a rep at SHM, and hope they won't mind me sharing. Anyone interested in having a spacer made for their primary tensioners rather than modifying the ratchets should find this useful. Might be something for James to add to his inventory as well!

Edit by Ed: It turns out SHM still offers this item for sale. As such I think it inappropriate to publish the intellectual property they spent their time, effort and money developing. This is not a potshot at Joe, he was trying to share what he discovered with the rest of the community here. At the time he believed SHM no longer offered this product. Turns out they do. Although Nik at SHM has not solicited your business, he has offered to make additional inventory. The parts are extraordinarily inexpensive. I encourage you to contact Nik at SHM for them if you intend to do this mod. Their toll free number is 888-282-2566. While you are at it check out their website it is quite impressive, click here => Sean Hyland Motorsports

 

[eschaider]

Joe and I were talking about the potential for SHM inventory to be low or non existant for this part last evening. In anticipation of a limited inventory I went over to McMaster-Carr and began looking for a suitable tubing size to use in the manufacture of these spacers. I found a 3/4 inch diameter 4130 tube with 0.095" wall that will work very nicely. This is the ordering data from McMaster for a 1 foot length;

This is the correct OD and ID. Use a little Scotch Brite to polish it in the lathe, cut off a piece, chamfer it and you are good to go. Price is manageable also. Shipping is not included.

Ed