Aluminator Gibtec Build - Page 3

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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    This is one great upgrade Joe! Thanks for taking the time to document it with both words and pictures.


    Ed
    NP, Ed - glad to share some good info. The gears are so nice, that I hope Travis will see an increase in business. With as much as I'm spending on this engine, I have complete confidence that his gears will suit me quite well!

    Also, thanks for adding the ARP info. I had forgotten to mention John Mihovitz and his insistence that 85 ft/lbs was the perfect number, despite how ARP has altered it over the years.

    Quote Originally Posted by cj428mach View Post
    On my car I'm running the 8740 head studs and the instructions they came with said torque to 80ftlb. These head studs were purchased back in the spring of 2015. I'm running them with Felpro
    Part # 26222PT (right)
    Part # 26187PT (left)
    head gaskets at almost 23 psi on my terminator. So far no issues *knocks on the wooden desk*..
    Great to hear that, Mike. There are probably plenty of guys that have had no problems, so that is good. I figured it was worth the upgrade, so I'll count on these being perfect as well. I definitely wanted to avoid this at all costs when it came to the 8740's:

    Name:  Stretched ARP stud copy.jpg
Views: 2100
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  3. #32

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    Ed, very good info on the torque specs. 85 ft lbs it is. Like you said, these mod motors are in many ways superior to the old push rod v8 SBF's of yesteryear. And it seems that head gasket sealing is one of those areas since it is rarely, if ever, reported someone experiences a head gasket leak/failure. I'm just being paranoid since I fought that for years back in the 90s. I distinctly remember with vivid clarity putting those motors together with head studs torqued to a ridiculous amount and Fel Pro 1011-1 head gaskets and as soon as you hit the second stage of nitrous, you got a gallon of coolant splashed all over the windshield from the heads literally lifting off the block and compression flooding the cooling system... Good times lol.

    Great documentation Jr. Like someone else commented, these build threads never get old. Your build is very impressive. Your meticulous attention to detail in admirable. I wish I had the cash flow to fund some other parts, but I have spared no expense on the must have parts. For what I'm doing and the power level I'm at, I'm quite certain that with good fuel, this will be the first - and last - time I have to do this... Lesson learned, albeit the hard way, for me ;)

  4. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrgoffin View Post
    NP, Ed - glad to share some good info. The gears are so nice, that I hope Travis will see an increase in business. With as much as I'm spending on this engine, I have complete confidence that his gears will suit me quite well!

    Also, thanks for adding the ARP info. I had forgotten to mention John Mihovitz and his insistence that 85 ft/lbs was the perfect number, despite how ARP has altered it over the years.



    Great to hear that, Mike. There are probably plenty of guys that have had no problems, so that is good. I figured it was worth the upgrade, so I'll count on these being perfect as well. I definitely wanted to avoid this at all costs when it came to the 8740's:

    Name:  Stretched ARP stud copy.jpg
Views: 2100
Size:  40.2 KB

    That is the exact failure mode Joe. As the engine builder you will notice it as a mushiness on the pull of the torque wrench as you approach target torque. The mushy feeling is the stud necking down in the root of the thread just before the main shank of the stud as your picture illustrates. When this happens the stud has to be replaced. My recommendation is not to risk the failure and just go directly to ARP 2000 studs. If you already have an engine assembled successfully with 8740's then replace them on the next build or swap them out one stud at a time in the torque sequence as you did.


    Ed
    Last edited by eschaider; 09-27-2015 at 10:32 PM. Reason: Spelling

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  6. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    That is the exact failure mode Joe. As the engine builder you will notice it as a mushiness on the pull of the torque wrench as you approach target torque. The mushy feeling is the stud necking down in the root of the tread just before the main shank of the stud as your picture illustrates. When this happens the stud has to be replaced. My recommendation is not to risk th failure and just go directly to ARP 2000 studs. If you already have an engine assembled successfully with 8740's then replace them on the next build or swap them out one stud at a time in the torque sequence as you did.


    Ed
    That pic actually came from the experience of someone else on this forum, unfortunately for them. I did also leave out the details that I started with the 8740 studs and then decided to upgrade before the project got too far along. None of the original stud lengths were measured other than eye-balling them, but I do admit that they looked fine with the naked eye, even though two of them felt kind of "funny" when I was torquing them down the first time. With specific specs and stretch values measured to the thousandth of an inch, I sure didn't want to take any chances and was happy to throw another $100 at ARP for the better studs. They should have been on the menu in the first place, but it was easy to trade up this early in the build!

  7. #35

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    Next up: timing components!

    I had initially thought - well, for a brief moment - about just putting in stock gears and settings the stock cams all at "zero" based on the Ford procedure. Fortunately, I saw the light and realized that DOHC cams have to be precisely set, especially when a lot of dollars are going in to the engine (again, I also picked up a real nice set of '98 cams - nothing too radical). Since this is a new build, I wasn't going to scavenge any parts off another engine, so the first addition to the timing components pile of parts was the FRPP M-6004-A464 kit:

    Name:  M-6004-A464 complete.jpg
Views: 2316
Size:  59.9 KB

    For what is contained within, it really is a fantastic deal at just over $400, especially with the all-iron tensioners. While I'll be using those tensioners, the OEM chains, guides, and intake cam spacers, it was also convenient to get a whole lot of little stuff like new timing cover bolts and gaskets, front crank seal, and even the crank trigger wheel. If you buy all these items from Ford (even at Tousley or Tasca prices), you'll still come in at over $600. If you are someone who is planning to use the OEM sprockets, the kit is an even better deal since the price for all those items will still add another $200 or so.

    As for seeing the light, the degreeing process will be accomplished thanks to all new Cloyes billet gears. For anyone that has tackled this, the Cloyes gear really can't be beat (not counting a couple manufacturing glitches from back in '07 or so). Unfortunately, factor in another $450 or so on their adjustable cam sprockets (buy all four), the billet one-piece crank gear, and a real nice primary gear kit. Adding to that, you'll still have to pick up the appropriate tools to to the job, so figure another $300-ish there.

    Here are those items and the prices I paid through Autoplicity (drop-shipped right from Cloyes, and arrived in three days).

    #S790HP9 cam gears, 4 @ $37 ea:

    Name:  Cloyes S790HP9.jpg
Views: 2035
Size:  40.3 KB

    #S869HP crank gear, $36:

    Name:  Cloyes S869HP.jpg
Views: 2015
Size:  48.6 KB

    #93169A primary gear set, $256:

    Name:  Cloyes 9-3169A.jpg
Views: 2050
Size:  37.7 KB

    Cloyes also sells all these items as a complete kit, with the exception of the cam gears where only two are adjustable there, AND they include chains. For anyone serious about this, just stay with the OEM Morse chains - they really can take a beating, although I think the new "Z" chain of theirs may be on par with the factory secondary. Just in case, if you decide that this is the easier way to go, this kit carries the Cloyes p/n 93175A, which was about $460 the last time I checked:

    Name:  Cloyes 9-3175A.jpg
Views: 2031
Size:  59.2 KB

    Anyway, here is a page from the Cloyes catalog that lays out all the DOHC parts, but it's a bit easier to read if you go to their site and download the whole thing in PDF format (http://www.cloyes.com/Images/CloyesHP_Catalog.pdf):

    Name:  Cloyes Ford modular.jpg
Views: 2060
Size:  105.7 KB

    For now, everything was installed in the "zero" positions in preparation for dialing it all in (more details on that when I get it documented), so here is a run through on getting everything set up. Incidentally, the Ford shop manual has this process documented quite well as do the instructions for the FRPP kit. If you need a service manual, whether the electronic version or the monsted PDF document, they are both available on my SVT Documents page. Also, the FRPP instructions, in PDF format, are available right from the FRPP site (which also includes a parts list for the kit).

    Moving right along. With the aid of the OTC 6498 DOHC cam kit, I made sure the crank was set so piston #1 (& #6) was at TDC using the special tool. The key will actually be at the 315° position, not straight up. The chain guides are also in position, and once the crank is lined up correctly, you remove the tool and set the crank gear on with the small flange facing out (the timing dot will be visible as seen in the picture up above).

    Name:  P1050386.jpg
Views: 2110
Size:  80.6 KB

    Once the cams are in, their keyways need to be set to the six o-clock position in relation to the head (perpendicular to the deck) and then held in position, also with a tool from the OTC kit. Here's how it looks from behind the head (driver's side shown for reference):

    Name:  P1050391.jpg
Views: 2227
Size:  78.9 KB

    When getting the secondary chains ready to go, pay attention since the cam gears go on differently for each side. It isn't real obvious with any of the documentation, but the sprockets have a flange that faces out for the passenger side, but in (towards the back of the head) on the driver's side. If you don't figure it out when sliding the chains over the tensioner pads, it will become obvious when you try to mount the primary gears. Here is the passenger side chain and gears with the dots on each gear adjacent to the marked link, and the flange facing out:

    Name:  P1050393.jpg
Views: 2041
Size:  114.0 KB

    The driver's side, with the flange oriented at the rear (the dots are marked on both sides, so don't worry):

    Name:  P1050394.jpg
Views: 2046
Size:  121.9 KB

    Before installing the secondary chains on the cams, you also want to install each tensioner there since the chains slip over them (although it is actually a real snug fit when the chains are new). On that note, three of the four tensioners actually are placed against the "slack" side of the chain, which is correct. That would be both primary chains, and the driver's side secondary chain (the one in between the cams). Think of a bicycle sprocket turning, looking at it from the right - the drive side is the upper chain, and the slack side is underneath. For whatever reason, Ford used a fourth tensioner on the passenger side that faces down, like on the driver's side, but this is not the slack side of the chain - the top is.

    Not to worry though, since James at Cobra Engineering has made a billet tensioner body that you simply swap out the parts from the OEM verision, and mount this on in the correct fashion. It's simple, and perfect (details here). It literally takes just a minute to make the modification, which is well worth it for the timing to be precise. Here are the tensioners bolted on ready to go (with the Mini Cooper bolts and washer shown for reference):

    Name:  P1050381.jpg
Views: 2291
Size:  84.6 KB

    Name:  P1050382.jpg
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    From here, the chain/sprocket assembly slides on to the cam pairs (also with the cam keys installed, but with the bolts, washer, and intake spacer removed first!). Here's the driver's side for reference - note the keyway position:

    Name:  P1050389.jpg
Views: 2162
Size:  90.6 KB

    Once these chains are on, you have to pull the pins in each tensioner before moving on to the primary gears which mount on each exhaust cam. Just to be safe, verify that each chain is centered on the tensioner pad (in case you got the cam sprockets on backwards). The drivers side looks like this, and it's similar on the passenger side (note the pin is still in, but it was removed right after):

    Name:  P1050390.jpg
Views: 2061
Size:  76.3 KB

    Coming up shortly, the big chains!
    Last edited by jrgoffin; 12-02-2017 at 02:10 PM.

  8. #36
    Senior Member Array BlueScreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrgoffin View Post
    That pic actually came from the experience of someone else on this forum, unfortunately for them.
    I'm to one that took the pictures and broke that stud. There was a paper in the stud box from ARP that indicated a 90ft-lbs torque on those 8740 stud. It was fine the first time I used them. I had problem with head gaskets due to a not straight deck. Then when I rebuilt the engine and torqued those studs a second time to 90ft-lbs, this particular one felt mushy exactly as Ed described it. Most of the other studs felt strange but torqued still torqued to 90ft-lbs. They also stretched but not as much as this one. Lesson learned, I only use ARP 2000 @ 85ft-lbs now.

  9. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrgoffin View Post
    Next up: timing components!

    I had initially thought - well, for a brief moment - about just putting in stock gears and settings the stock cams all at "zero" based on the Ford procedure. Fortunately, I saw the light and realized that DOHC cams have to be precisely set, especially when a lot of dollars are going in to the engine (again, I also picked up a real nice set of '98 cams - nothing too radical). Since this is a new build, I wasn't going to scavenge any parts off another engine, so the first addition to the timing components pile of parts was the FRPP M-6004-A464 kit:

    Name:  M-6004-A464 complete.jpg
Views: 2316
Size:  59.9 KB

    For what is contained within, it really is a fantastic deal at just over $400, especially with the all-iron tensioners. While I'll be using those tensioners, the OEM chains, guides, and intake cam spacers, it was also convenient to get a whole lot of little stuff like new timing cover bolts and gaskets, front crank seal, and even the crank trigger wheel. If you buy all these items from Ford (even at Tousley or Tasca prices), you'll still come in at over $600. If you are someone who is planning to use the OEM sprockets, the kit is an even better deal since the price for all those items will still add another $200 or so.

    As for seeing the light, the degreeing process will be accomplished thanks to all new Cloyes billet gears. For anyone that has tackled this, the Cloyes gear really can't be beat (not counting a couple manufacturing glitches from back in '07 or so). Unfortunately, factor in another $450 or so on their adjustable cam sprockets (buy all four), the billet one-piece crank gear, and a real nice primary gear kit. Adding to that, you'll still have to pick up the appropriate tools to to the job, so figure another $300-ish there.

    Here are those items and the prices I paid through Autoplicity (drop-shipped right from Cloyes, and arrived in three days).

    #S790HP9 cam gears, 4 @ $37 ea:

    Name:  Cloyes S790HP9.jpg
Views: 2035
Size:  40.3 KB

    #S869HP crank gear, $36:

    Name:  Cloyes S869HP.jpg
Views: 2015
Size:  48.6 KB

    #93169A primary gear set, $256:

    Name:  Cloyes 9-3169A.jpg
Views: 2050
Size:  37.7 KB

    Cloyes also sells all these items as a complete kit, with the exception of the cam gears where only two are adjustable there, AND they include chains. For anyone serious about this, just stay with the OEM Morse chains - they really can take a beating, although I think the new "Z" chain of theirs may be on par with the factory secondary. Just in case, if you decide that this is the easier way to go, this kit carries the Cloyes p/n 93175A, which was about $460 the last time I checked:

    Name:  Cloyes 9-3175A.jpg
Views: 2031
Size:  59.2 KB

    Anyway, here is a page from the Cloyes catalog that lays out all the DOHC parts, but it's a bit easier to read if you go to their site and download the whole thing in PDF format (http://www.cloyes.com/Images/CloyesHP_Catalog.pdf):

    Name:  Cloyes Ford modular.jpg
Views: 2060
Size:  105.7 KB

    For now, everything was installed in the "zero" positions in preparation for dialing it all in (more details on that when I get it documented), so here is a run through on getting everything set up. Incidentally, the Ford shop manual has this process documented quite well as do the instructions for the FRPP kit. If you need a service manual, whether the electronic version or the monsted PDF document, they are both available on my SVT Documents page. Also, the FRPP instructions, in PDF format, are available right from the FRPP site (which also includes a parts list for the kit).

    Moving right along. With the aid of the OTC 6498 DOHC cam kit, I made sure the crank was set so piston #1 (& #6) was at TDC using the special tool. The key will actually be at the 315° position, not straight up. The chain guides are also in position, and once the crank is lined up correctly, you remove the tool and set the crank gear on with the small flange facing out (the timing dot will be visible as seen in the picture up above).

    Name:  P1050386.jpg
Views: 2110
Size:  80.6 KB

    Once the cams are in, their keyways need to be set to the six o-clock position in relation to the head (perpendicular to the deck) and then held in position, also with a tool from the OTC kit. Here's how it looks from behind the head (driver's side shown for reference):

    Name:  P1050391.jpg
Views: 2227
Size:  78.9 KB

    When getting the secondary chains ready to go, pay attention since the cam gears go on differently for each side. It isn't real obvious with any of the documentation, but the sprockets have a flange that faces out for the passenger side, but in (towards the back of the head) on the driver's side. If you don't figure it out when sliding the chains over the tensioner pads, it will become obvious when you try to mount the primary gears. Here is the passenger side chain and gears with the dots on each gear adjacent to the marked link, and the flange facing out:

    Name:  P1050393.jpg
Views: 2041
Size:  114.0 KB

    The driver's side, with the flange oriented at the rear (the dots are marked on both sides, so don't worry):

    Name:  P1050394.jpg
Views: 2046
Size:  121.9 KB

    Before installing the secondary chains on the cams, you also want to install each tensioner there since the chains slip over them (although it is actually a real snug fit when the chains are new). On that note, three of the four tensioners actually are placed against the "slack" side of the chain, which is correct. That would be both primary chains, and the driver's side secondary chain (the one in between the cams). Think of a bicycle sprocket turning, looking at it from the right - the drive side is the upper chain, and the slack side is underneath. For whatever reason, Ford used a fourth tensioner on the passenger side that faces down, like on the driver's side, but this is not the slack side of the chain - the top is.

    Not to worry though, since James at Cobra Engineering has made a billet tensioner body that you simply swap out the parts from the OEM verision, and mount this on in the correct fashion. It's simple, and perfect (details here). It literally takes just a minute to make the modification, which is well worth it for the timing to be precise. Here are the tensioners bolted on ready to go (with the Mini Cooper bolts and washer shown for reference):

    Name:  P1050381.jpg
Views: 2291
Size:  84.6 KB

    Name:  P1050382.jpg
Views: 2088
Size:  83.5 KB

    From here, the chain/sprocket assembly slides on to the cam pairs (also with the cam keys installed, but with the bolts, washer, and intake spacer removed first!). Here's the driver's side for reference - note the keyway position:

    Name:  P1050389.jpg
Views: 2162
Size:  90.6 KB

    Once these chains are on, you have to pull the pins in each tensioner before moving on to the primary gears which mount on each exhaust cam. Just to be safe, verify that each chain is centered on the tensioner pad (in case you got the cam sprockets on backwards). The drivers side looks like this, and it's similar on the passenger side (note the pin is still in, but it was removed right after):

    Name:  P1050390.jpg
Views: 2061
Size:  76.3 KB

    Coming up shortly, the big chains!
    Great write up with excellent pics and explanation.... bravo sir.

  10. #38
    Senior Member Array 04DeadShort's Avatar
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    Yea great thread. Keep it up.

  11. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueScreen View Post
    I'm to one that took the pictures and broke that stud. There was a paper in the stud box from ARP that indicated a 90ft-lbs torque on those 8740 stud. It was fine the first time I used them. I had problem with head gaskets due to a not straight deck. Then when I rebuilt the engine and torqued those studs a second time to 90ft-lbs, this particular one felt mushy exactly as Ed described it. Most of the other studs felt strange but torqued still torqued to 90ft-lbs. They also stretched but not as much as this one. Lesson learned, I only use ARP 2000 @ 85ft-lbs now.
    Thanks for chiming in: it does seem that 85 ft/lbs is the magic number for the 2000 studs, and I'm sure I'll be content with that figure. Hope you don't mind me borrowing that picture - that was another one that was similar, but couldn't find it and figured yours would work just as well. Glad you were able to add some more to this for everyone's benefit!

  12. #40

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    The primary gears and chains are up next...

    I didn't want to forget, but with the '98 cams, one of the benefits - again - are the larger 12mm bolts compared to 10mm from '01-'04. As already mentioned, the Mini Cooper 12mm set is perfect, and offer some extra length compared to a Mustang-specific bolt. Additionally, these can be torqued down to 125 ft/lbs (off the top of my head) once the timing is set, so the cams won't be going anywhere. Just for reference, here is a new bolt & washer compared to a 10mm Ford bolt and matching washer - quite the difference:

    Name:  P1050387.jpg
Views: 1948
Size:  155.1 KB

    Again, if you go the same route as I have, you can get four of the bolts through Summit (without the washers) and then you add two specific 7/16" ID washers that will be drilled out to fit the new bolts. You only need two washers since the hub of each Cloyes primary gear takes the place of that washer.

    On to those gears, they are obviously specific to each side. Unlike the stock photo I used in post #35, these gears are solid, which is also shown in the Cloyes ad. The drivers side gear has the tab on the front for the cam position sensor unlike the passenger side, but more importantly, they have different flanges on the back which allow them to mate properly to the appropriate secondary sprocket. If you happen to mix those up, it will become evident when you try to tighten the bolt and find that the gear does not sit flush to the cam face. Here's how they look from the back just for general reference:

    Name:  P1050392.jpg
Views: 1942
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    Another nice feature, other than them being ridiculously solid billet steel, are the cam locating pins. They have to align in the keyway of the cam, yet can still be adjusted 5° either way. Once the set screws and the cam bolt is tightened, they are definitely not moving! This is a larger blow-up from Cloyes, but worth showing while I keep giving this gear set props!

    Name:  Cloyes sprocket.jpg
Views: 1997
Size:  73.5 KB

    Mounting these gears is real simple, and like the secondary set, you wrap the chain with the locating link adjacent to the timing dot on the gear, then slip the chain over the crank sprocket with its timing mark lined up with the correct link. The driver's side goes on first. Here's that gear mounted up (also showing the ARP bolt):

    Name:  20150927_193116.jpg
Views: 1976
Size:  70.1 KB

    The chain is obviously on the crank gear before you move on to the passenger side, but both line up the same way on the bottom (I marked the dot just to see it easier). These next two pictures show the other primary gear, as well as a close-up of the crank gear, also with its bolt and washer loosely in place:

    Name:  20150927_193148.jpg
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    Name:  P1050402.jpg
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    From here, you are in the home stretch and slip on each tensioner arm followed by their tensioners (they are side-specific, by the way!). It's simple, but just in case, here is a tech drawing of them that won't leave any doubt as to where they go:

    Name:  Terminator primary tensioners.jpg
Views: 2055
Size:  122.0 KB

    Also, when it comes to the intake cams, there will be a spacer that slips on to the cam, followed by the washer and bolt. If you goofed and got the secondary gears on incorrectly, you won't have made it through the installation of the primary gears, but here is how it all looks from the top (showing the passenger side this time):

    Name:  P1050398.jpg
Views: 1955
Size:  81.8 KB

    The cam bolts are all installed finger-tight for now, and at this point, I'm back to post #1 with the long-block all together. Note in the picture that the pins have not been pulled from the primary tenstioners. Once the degreeing process is started, if the primary gear needs to be slipped off to access the secondary cam sprocket, there is enough slack in the chains to allow this, but the chains are tight enough to maintain accuracy (some guys use clamps on the chain(s) when setting the cams).

    When the cams are all in position and it's time to prepare for the timing cover installation, the pins will come out. Now, I take a break, but soon enough, I'll document the process of getting these cams dialed in. If any random - and important - thoughts pop in to my head from now and until then, I'll be sure to share them.

    Name:  20150924_160352.jpg
Views: 1945
Size:  101.6 KB
    Last edited by jrgoffin; 11-18-2017 at 09:14 AM.

  13. #41
    Senior Member Array BlueScreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrgoffin View Post
    Thanks for chiming in: it does seem that 85 ft/lbs is the magic number for the 2000 studs, and I'm sure I'll be content with that figure. Hope you don't mind me borrowing that picture - that was another one that was similar, but couldn't find it and figured yours would work just as well. Glad you were able to add some more to this for everyone's benefit!
    No problem, I don't mind anyone using my pictures. They are there for everyone to see my mistakes, and save a few from doing them.
    Also, here's the original thread in case someone wants more details: https://www.modularfords.com/threads/...some-ARP-studs
    Last edited by BlueScreen; 09-27-2015 at 10:56 PM. Reason: Added the link to the original thread

  14. #42

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    Well done write up

  15. #43
    Senior Member Array sparky1562's Avatar
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    Wow! I will definitely be referring back to this thread when i get to this point in my build! Thanks for all the detail!

  16. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by eschaider View Post
    One additional comment on the Teksid and WAP gaskets for the oil and water manifold on the driverside of the block. These things can get tricky. If you have any doubt lay the gasket up against the block and visually check before buttoning things up.

    The gasket on the right with the provision for a taller water inlet is the WAP block gasket and also the 99 Teksid block gasket.

    The gasket on the left with the shorter water inlet is the pre-99 Teksid gasket and also a variety of iron blocks.



    Ed
    Thanks for adding that tidbit, Ed. I wasn't aware of differences in the earlier Tesksid blocks, but there is no doubt the best way to ensure the match is to just line them up. I knew the larger one would work fine, but no sense in not verifying it while the project is ongoing!

    Quote Originally Posted by eutynem View Post
    Well done write up
    Quote Originally Posted by sparky1562 View Post
    Wow! I will definitely be referring back to this thread when i get to this point in my build! Thanks for all the detail!
    Thanks for the comments! Will be probably adding little details here and there before I get on to the next step.

  17. #45
    Senior Member Array 04DeadShort's Avatar
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    Dont forget to check your valve lash.

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