[jrgoffin]

Joe:

get on the highway and turn the sensitivity knob up until any engine noise may be detected.

Had it all the way up, John, and there was no noise - at least there was none I could detect. Also, there was no illumination of the LED, even during deceleration. Since you had a note in there about how some engines will exhibit nothing, I figured I was doing well.

The usual fuel mix today is an E10 pump grade fuel, Joe. The safe zone for fueling with E10 is in the 11.2 AFR range. The 12:1 AFR, if that is in fact what it really is, is potentially damaging on extended WOT pulls. My preference is not to do even the short pulls (I know the tug is powerful) until the tune is finished. Your build is exemplary I would feel terrible if it got accidentally bruised before tuning because of that need to feel the power.

It is hard to do but put a brick under the gas pedal

Ed

That was probably a bit too off-the-cuff on the AFR, Ed. The refresh rate of the Innovate gauge is so stinking fast that I had a real hard time reading it while trying to keep going in a straight line. It was definitely easier with the steering column pod and less sun glare on the pillar, but I'll definitely avoid getting on it until the tune is checked. In any case, there is a big power jump compared to what was in before, and with the weight off the nose, the fun factor has gone way up

On the note of the tune, from what I understand, this "starter" version I have is real similar to a tune used in a buddies car with a Whipple (3.5" pulley) and 60# injectors. I thought it was a bit on the conservative side for the ported Eaton, but I won't get crazy until after a dyno run for sure. So far though, all has come together real well.

 

[Edmisten1]

The usual fuel mix today is an E10 pump grade fuel, Joe. The safe zone for fueling with E10 is in the 11.2 AFR range. The 12:1 AFR, if that is in fact what it really is, is potentially damaging on extended WOT pulls. My preference is not to do even the short pulls (I know the tug is powerful) until the tune is finished. Your build is exemplary I would feel terrible if it got accidentally bruised before tuning because of that need to feel the power.

It is hard to do but put a brick under the gas pedal

Ed

I listened to this advice and studied and read more articles than I can even remember on this topic. From what the guy who tuned my car in Dallas last month told me, it was common practice back in the day to tune these cars on the dyno on pump 93 octane gasoline @ .81 to even .82 lambda with 18 degrees timing and 18-19 lbs of boost to post big hp/torque numbers. Driveability generally suffered a bit and longevity was always a question mark. That's exactly where my car was and it's no secret what happened to me over time. These days that tuning preference is generally frowned upon. We cleaned all that up in my new tune. My car is tuned for .78 lambda and we pulled a degree and a half timing out. Is it a total fail safe? Of course not. But do I feel more comfortable now. Yes, I do. I haven't had it on a dyno nor do I really care to. Seat of the pants is still ridiculous and it is a much safer tune and the general driveability is better than it has ever been.

 

[John@J&S]

Joe:

It looks like you have the boost retard set to pull one degree per psi, starting at 8 or 9 psi.

At 18 psi, it would be pulling ten degrees.

I think the rule of thumb for a V8 at your power level is about 16 hp lost per degree of retard.

 

[eschaider]

For those that may have forgotten or those that didn't see the thread, this is what one of Jeff's (Edmisten1) pistons looked like.

There were no audible sounds of detonation and Jeff is not one the crazies that does the lean is mean type of tune up. He was conservative. What you are seeing is the result of the incipient detonation that occurs in a blown gas engine over time that you simply have no clue is happening.

Eventually it will do enough damage the engine will need a rebuild. There is a fuel system calculator that does a number of things one of which is the setting of fence lines you don't want to cross. It is available as an XL download for Windows or Mac in the TToC under the Fuel System subsection. This is a screenshot of page three of the calculator;

The most lean you want to consider is the 0.8 Lambda Jeff was speaking to above. That is the leanest. Think of it as your Mobil Economy Run tune-up, definitely not your max power tune-up. The AFR for E-10 is 11.2 leanest. Safer is 10.9 AFR.

Additionally, although I sound like a broken record, there simply is no substitute for a Vampire.

Ed

 

[jrgoffin]

^^^^A good broken record!!!

Joe:

It looks like you have the boost retard set to pull one degree per psi, starting at 8 or 9 psi.

At 18 psi, it would be pulling ten degrees.

I think the rule of thumb for a V8 at your power level is about 16 hp lost per degree of retard.

EDIT: Might have flip-flopped the description there, John. I'm guessing I should have set the "Start" (right dial) to the full CW position of 10PSI, and the "Rate" dial back to something less than 1°/PSI. Not 100% sure where an ideal position would be, but I think I just mixed them up.

 

[John@J&S]

Joe:

No, I don't think you have them mixed up.

If you think there is no way it can knock below 10psi, then you can leave the Start knob alone.

I would gradually dial back the Rate knob a bit and check for knock retard as you go.

 

[Edmisten1]

The iron block did not have a provision for knock sensors in the intake valley, but they would not fit under the bathtub intake anyway (apparently someone at Ford just didn't feel the need to make them happen). As with the aluminum blocks, those bosses have to be shaved down a bit. Interestingly enough, when Kenne Bell came out with their S/C kit for the '99/'01 Cobra, the OE knock sensors were still retained, just relocated to the block. Sounds like a great idea!

Question: since the OEM 03-04 cast iron block does not have a factory boss location to place a knock sensor, where/how is the recommended location to place/do it?

 

[John@J&S]

The sensor mounts in an unused 10 x 1.5mm tapped hole on the driver's side of the block, just behind the motor mount.

 

[Edmisten1]

The sensor mounts in an unused 10 x 1.5mm tapped hole on the driver's side of the block, just behind the motor mount.

Very good...thanks.

 

[jrgoffin]

Question: since the OEM 03-04 cast iron block does not have a factory boss location to place a knock sensor, where/how is the recommended location to place/do it?

About the same location on the aluminum block as the iron. From page #28:

 

[jrgoffin]

Decided to make a "quick" update to this thread going back to the very first post: added a Table of Contents. It has gotten long, but hopefully anyone using it as reference will find it easier to use with the highlights of each page laid out. Will keep it updated as necessary and should have some info on a dyno run and tweak of the tune real soon.

 

[eschaider]

I was wondering when you were going to succumb, Joe.

You and AJ caved in at about the same point.

— although you held out a bit longer.


Ed

 

[jrgoffin]

It was driving me nuts trying to find certain things and I wrote most of it! Hopefully this makes it much easier now, especially since this thread just keeps chugging along. Now I'll be looking forward to seeing the final exam on the dyno!

 

[jrgoffin]

Another update after a couple more weeks of occasional driving, where the engine is still running fantastic and the Vampire is tucked away and lurking in the background. One new addition to it, which is something I should have acquired from the start, is the accompanying gauge (thanks, John!!). It gives you instant information if the Vampire activates, and as John mentioned, it is invaluable during the tuning process. I vaguely recall Ed mentioning how beneficial it is as well, so if I get an "I told you so", that is okay!

In any case, here is the bundle that arrived last week from John - simple and perfect:

The gauge itself is rock solid and fits any 2-1/16" pod:

Installation is as easy as it comes: simply plug the supplied 3.5mm stereo cable in to the back of the gauge along with the port on the Vampire and it is ready to go. Since I have the dual A-pillar pod already with the Innovate Wideband and AeroForce Interceptor, the perfect position for this is on the steering column. Here is it under the AutoMeter #10004 cover (painted to match, of course):

Close-up of the gauge for the heck of it. Nice and stealthy but perfectly visible:

With the Vampire back under the passenger seat, the cable for the gauge was easy to run along the existing bundle, behind the center console, then behind the steering wheel and in to the pod. I did also discover that I was about a foot short on the vacuum line the way I ran it, so an extension with a plastic union was easy enough to hook up as well. Here is everything set as I left it, with the sensitivity just about at the mid-range point, and the boost rate dial backed down to minimum:

As far as my tune goes, the AFR was fattened up a bit slightly by just using the SCT handheld and bumping the mixture 4%. This was per the tuner, but at some point, I'd like to get on a dyno to see the final output and have him make specific adjustments on site. In any case, with the WOT AFR originally hovering around 12:1, I should be in the 11's with it now.

Otherwise, I will most likely learn more about the gauge functions as I get out to drive and then have the tune tweaked. Here is the page from John's site that does have some more detail though (including the dual monitor that includes an AFR LED):

http://www.jandssafeguard.com/monitors.html

Instruction sheet as well (the version for mine is slightly different, but the basic details are covered):

http://www.jandssafeguard.com/MonitorInstall.gif

As usual, it's another great product from J&S, and a worthwhile accompaniment to the Vampire. As I dive in to its use a bit more, I'll be glad to keep adding to this thread!

 

[Edmisten1]

Looks awesome...as all your stuff does

 

[eschaider]

While it is certainly not necessary to tune the car as you pointed out Joe, it really does, as you also pointed out, make the job a lot easier. Additionally, it is quite visible to the driver while operating the vehicle, which is the on going 'goodness' the gauge brings to the whole deal.

Very nice job and documentation, as usual, and excellent placement...:thumb:

I know I sound like a broken record on this topic but, for those who have not installed a Vampire you really need to. Gasoline's ability to detonate is unequalled by any other fuel but one and we don't run that one. There is a TV commercial for a product which I forget the name of but the commercial is set in a bank and goes something like this;

Bank Security Guard: There is a robbery in progress!

Bank Customer: Oh my goodness what are you going to do?

Bank Security Guard: Nothing.

Bank Customer: Well why not!?

Bank Security Guard: My job is to alert you to the robbery. I have now done my job.

Bank Customer: Well that's not particularly helpful!! (or words to that effect)

This is exactly like every knock detector for sale today does. They document what has happened after the fact!. But do nothing to prevent the problem or a re-occurrence of the problem. The only system that will detect the onset of detonation and then pull timing on a cylinder by cylinder basis, in real time, before the next ignition event to prevent a recurrence is the J&S Vampire.

You are playing Russian Roulette with more than one bullet in the gun if you do not use a Vampire on a supercharged gas engine - in particular PD blown supercharged gas engines. BTW all you turbo and centri guys need it too, the PD blown guys just need it more. I know this sounds extreme but I assure you, it is not.

 

[jrgoffin]

^^Everyone on this site and those lurking will be wise to take this seriously!

Will keep updating the thread as I get more experience with the box, and especially an adjustment to the tune, but I'm confident this engine will keep running smooth.

 

[jrgoffin]

Out for another spin today - just over 100 miles on the engine and all is well. The new gauge for the Vampire looks right at home, and didn't flash any lights at all, despite some spirited driving. With the WOT fuel bumped slightly, I'm assuming I'm running a hair richer, but I'm reluctant to do any real WOT pulls until I get on a dyno, which I'll most likely wait until fall when the cooler weather gets here. In the meantime, no complaints.

I also had the chance to look at some temperatures due to the swap out of the K&N FIPK for a Tunable Induction CAI that I've had new in the box for over a year. For those that remember the "original" kits from around 2000 known as the DenseCharger, made by John DeMolet, TI has just continued with these kits in a nice fashion, making them out of real heavy ABS plastic with a 4-1/2" ID.

Here's a picture of an early kit with two different filter options (mine came with the smaller one, which is supplied by Green Filter USA):

Basically looks like this when laid out flat (the filter points 90° down when down behind the wheel well liner):

In any case, with the K&N FIPK, the filter shield no longer sealed the filter from the hot air blowing through the radiator since the '00R hood is domed more than the OE Terminator hood. On hot days during any prolonged idle, the Inlet temperature (IAT1), would creep up over 140° and the Charge temperature (IAT2) would follow. During cruise it wasn't as much of an issue, but the IAT1 would still be over ambient and the IAT2 would be 120°+, which is probably relatively normal for a ported Eaton.

With the new CAI in place, IAT1 is always right at ambient (makes sense with the filter tucked in the fender), and so far, IAT2 at cruise has come down at bit to around 110° or a hair over. Unfortunately, I noticed that when sitting at idle (longer than just a stop for traffic), the IAT2 would also creep back up to close to 140°. Once moving, it would come back down quickly, but I surmise that is the norm. So far, so good.

Also, absolutely no issues with idle, and throttle response is still smooth. Here it is all installed (painted gloss black):

Another feature of a kit like this that I like is the ability to pull the OE inlet to inspect or change plugs without having to wrestle with a long plastic one-piece tube. For now, it will work just fine, but I'll see what the tuner has to say once I'm up on the rollers.

 

[slowyellow]

First of all, great job with the build and documentation. I was going to have my long block assembled but now I think that your thread has inspired me to do it myself. The timing components were the big unknown for me. And I also appreciate the "lessons learned" that you have shown the solution to. So thank you.

Second off, do you have any updates? I just took about 4 days and read through this entire thread. Now I'm wondering if you have any updates as far as dyno results?

 

[jrgoffin]

No real updates - just have been driving the car and enjoying the heck out of this engine. I probably have a whopping 150 miles on it so far, but it gets more enjoyable each time I'm out. I do intend to get on a dyno sometime soon for any tweaking the tune may need along with a look at some final output numbers, but I'll probably wait until the fall when the temperature comes down a bit. Otherwise, all is well!

Glad you liked the thread - it should help out anyone building one of these engines, and even more so with the aluminum block. While there are a lot of small details to ponder, these projects are easily within the grasp of most. Keep everyone posted if you dive in!